EP. 86 – Interview W/ ZUBY MUSIC!

Teacher Mike: Hey, everyone, it's teacher Mike here, and you're listening to my podcast, and I'm super, super happy and honored that you are here. You can find me on Facebook and find me on Instagram. You can find me on YouTube. You can find on Snapchat and Twitter. Mostly I'll be on Instagram, Twitter and now definitely YouTube. So just look for me there. ItsTeacherMike. And enjoy today's episode.

Teacher Mike: All right. Hey, everyone, it's Teacher Mike hera and today we have Zuby the men. So first of all, this guy is a rapper. That's the first thing. But he's also an Oxford graduate. He's also an author. He's also a podcaster. And he's also a speaker and kind of an icon. So the first question I have, Zuby, I have to get this out of the way... as an Englishman. Do you eat beans for breakfast?

Zuby: Not normally. Once in a while. No, I don't cook them for breakfast.

Zuby: But if someone offers them, then I will eat them.

Teacher Mike: All right. No I'm just kidding. So first question actually. Now. Now, for real. Have you ever been to Brazil? Most of my audience is from Brazil, by the way. Have you ever been there?

Zuby: No, not yet. Not yet. But I definitely will in the future.

Teacher Mike: What is kind of like your opinion about Brazil? Do we have an opinion about it?

Zuby: Yeah, I have a very positive view of Brazil. I haven't been there, but I've met tons of Brazilian people. I've got friends who have been there. I've got family members who have been there. And most of what I hear and see sounds positive. So it's definitely somewhere that's on my list of life. If there were sort of five, certainly 10, but even five countries that I want to visit. I'd say Brazil is one of them.

Speaker: That's good. It's great to hear that. Yes. Well, your career. How does someone that graduated Oxford as a computer science major eventually becomes a speaker? That goes on to the Joe Rogan, Ben Shapiro, Dave Rubi, Tucker Carlson's show. How does that happen?

Zuby: Yeah. So it all started with the music, man. So I started making music when I was in university. I started rapping when I was 18. In my second year of university, I released my first album, which was called Commercial Underground. So that was the first time that I really made a little bit of money with my music and I started growing my fan base and my audience and everything like that. And then I graduated from university. I did my music full-time for one year. I released a second album called The Unknown Celebrity, and I moved to London. I started working full time in London. I worked for a big company as a management consultant and then into...

Teacher Mike: You actually worked in the field of computer science?

Zuby: Not specifically computer science, but I was a management consultant. So I dabbled in, you know, some techie stuff. But it was more like business consulting. So I did that for three years. And then in November 2011, I took the big jump and I left to go do my music full time. So I've been self-employed since November 2011, coming up to nine years now. And for the first several years, it all started out with just the music and then merchandising. And then in 20. To be honest, a lot of stuff shifted last year, 2018, 2019. And I just started dabbling in more, doing a bit more social commentary and really revealing a bit more about myself and sharing more of my thoughts. And my opinions are really resonating with people. In January twenty nineteen, I started my own podcast, Real Talk with Zuby. Yeah, February twenty nineteen. I went super crazy viral by breaking the women's deadlift record.

Teacher Mike: We're going to talk about that.

Zuby: Put me on people's radar. Then I released, wrote and released my first book in May last year, which has sold a few thousand copies. Now I'm actually just in the middle of doing another run of the paperbacks and. Yeah. Twenty eighteen. I also started doing some coaching and public speaking. So stuff has just grown and last year in particular, the past 18 months have been crazy. I mean, most people who know me now, I'd say probably 98 percent of people who have heard of me probably found out about me in the last 18 months, which is kind of crazy considering I put out my first album in 2006. So it's been it's just sort of grown very exponentially.

Teacher Mike: That is that is a very good lesson in being this persistent. Right. Because it took you a while. But yeah, I am in that statistic. I kind of got you under my radar because of the deadlifting thing. But before we talk about that, I would like to ask what I think it's an interesting question. How was your family or friends reaction when you quit the normal path to becoming self-employed? Being a rapper, being a podcaster, and everything else?

Zuby: Yeah, well, it wasn't really a surprise for them. You have to remember, by the time I did this, I already had I'd already released two albums and one E.P. I'd already built an audience, you know, thousands, thousands of fans I'd already toward around the UK and done quite a lot of things. So it wasn't like I was. It wasn't like I left my job. And then I started rapping. Right. I was already rapping. I already had music out there. I already had that ball rolling. And then both careers were just starting to interfere with each other too much. And I knew where my heart was. I knew that I knew what I really wanted to be doing. So it wasn't a very difficult decision for me to make. And then. Yeah. Once I once I did, then my family and friends were very supportive and still are. Once I set my mind to something, I just go and I do it. And I think people know that. But also my fans, my parents and my family. Number one, they're just very supportive. But also they know that I'm smart, right? They know. They know. They know that I'm not going to do something that doesn't that I haven't thought it through myself. Right. They know that if I make a decision, it's because I thought about it. Right. It wasn't just like I didn't just wake up one day and go, I want to be a rapper, you know what I mean? So I thought about it. From the creative side, the business side, everything, I knew I could make money from it already because I was already making money from it. So it was a it was a transition. Then that's how it happened.

Teacher Mike: That is really cool. So it was a smooth transition. Would you say to someone that is listening to this podcast right now and he's trying to make this jump? They are in a career that they don't feel really happy. What would you tell them how to make this jump or what would some advice for them be?

Zuby: My advice would be to be strategic and be realistic. Right. And not. Don't just do something on a whim because emotionally or feel, oh, I'm bored of my job, I'm going to go.

Teacher Mike: And that's really good.

Zuby: Start a cupcake company. Right. You know, like if you want to start a cupcake company, then keep the job you're already doing and start selling cupcakes and you'll see if you have a market, you'll see if there's an audience, you'll see if you're good at it. And once your you know, I'd say you probably want to be making maybe somewhere 30 percent to 50 percent of the income you're making from the full time job before you'd probably even really want to consider. OK, this is yeah, this is a leap that I can make. You don't want to. You don't want to. You want the the you want the I don't know. You want the plane to already be on the runway. You don't want to start at a dead stop. And you want to make sure that you can do what you're doing, because a lot of people, people have different ideas about the notion of following your passion and chasing your dreams. And I'm a big fan of chasing your dreams, but you also have to be realistic about it. Right. You have to make sure that you are good at what you want to do. Right. If you want to be a professional basketball player but you're not that good of basketball, then it doesn't matter.

Zuby: It doesn't matter.

Teacher Mike: How many hours you practice.

Zuby: It doesn't matter. Like you can't do it right.

Zuby: You have to you have to actually be good at what you want to do. And there also has to be a demand for it. I mean, in this day and age, I'd say there's a demand for almost everything, right? You can always find an audience for everything, but you have to make sure that there's a demand for it and that you're able to do it and sustain yourself. Because if you can't, then you don't have a business. You just have a hobby.

Teacher Mike: That is so good. I resonate a lot with that because I love soccer. I'm horrible at it. But in spite of being Brazilian. So, yeah. Do you like soccer, by the way? I mean, football, you guys, call it football.

Zuby: Yeah. We call it football. Yeah.

Teacher Mike: Which is the correct way. By way, it makes more sense. Yeah.

Teacher Mike: Zuby, I would like to ask why rap or why hip hop. I think rap. Right. Was there's something that impacted you, that you that made you become a rapper. What happened there?

Zuby: Yeah, it's a good question. So I've been a Hip-Hop fan since I was maybe eleven or twelve years old. I started getting into hip hop and then in my mid teens, I was like really into it and listening to it a lot and buying all the albums and, you know, even buying the clothes and stuff like that. And then when I was in university, I actually I got stuck in an airport. I wrote my very first rap. I was stuck in the main airport in Paris. I was just traveling. Yeah, I was traveling to Nigeria. And I got I had a long layover and I was by myself. I was bored and I had my MP3 player. It had some music on it. And I just started writing down some lyrics. And then I kept doing that during the next few weeks and I just started recording raps into my phone and playing them to people. And when I got back to university, I would download beats from the Internet. And one of my friends had a basic recording studio in his dorm room. So I'd go in there and just we'd record songs and everything and I'd just email them to people. And, you know, now this is back in the MySpace days as well, SOUNDCLICK and stuff like that - right before SoundCloud, early days YouTube, before Facebook and Instagram and all of that stuff. So that's kind of how it started. And I just started making a little bit of a name for myself. People liked it and I just kept doing it. And once I had enough songs together, that's when I put together my first album. I got it pressed up, did a few, you know, physical copies of it. And then I would just, um. Yeah, I just started selling them for four or five pounds each for anyone who wanted to get a copy. And, you know, I sold 3000 copies of my first album.

Teacher Mike: Dude, that's so good

Zuby: Yeah. All hand to hand. So that's kind of how it started. And that was when it was like, OK, you know, p this is something I can do as more than just a hobby. If if three thousand people are willing to buy my C.D., then this is something I can do something with this, you know.

Teacher Mike: Yeah. It makes a lot of sense. Now I'm nearly not as critical as Ben Shapiro is when it comes to hip hop and rap. I think it's a nice type of music. I listen to it sometimes, but I definitely agree with the fact that as a backbone of culture, it spreads a lot of negative messages. The similar equivalent to hip hop or rap in Brazil is called Funk Carioca or the funk from Rio de Janeiro. Have you ever heard anything about this?

Zuby: I don't think I have, actually, no.

Teacher Mike: All right. So I think it's like the third or fourth most subscribe channel on YouTube. It's one of the big producers. And this one song has one point four billion views. It's called Bum Bum Tam Tam, which basically means Ass Tam Tam, which is about a girl shaking her ass to the ground. Now,.

Zuby: Deep lyrics.

Teacher Mike: Yeah, super deep! yeah, right. So my question. I have two questions, of course. But first of all, what do you make of that as a message? Do you think it impacts negatively on the culture? Because it's a backbone of culture. Mm hmm. And then second question, what happened to you that made you become the different line, that made you become a rapper that really thinks through and creates some meaningful, deep lyrics?

Zuby: Yeah, it's a good question. And, you know, a lot of people ask me about this, especially in the world of Hip-Hop, when it comes to the content and the lyrics of what some rappers are saying. And I think I like to flip this question on its head. And I think a more interesting question, I think a much more interesting question is why do one point four billion people want to listen to that?

Teacher Mike: Dude! That is it. Right. Right. That's a very good question!

Zuby: People are asking, why did the artist make that? And I'm asking, why is it so popular? Like, why? There's lots of other songs out there.

Teacher Mike: But does the chicken come before the egg? Because does the artist do it because people listen to it , or people listen to it, because the artist does it?

Zuby: Look... most artists don't get one point four billion anything. So the demand is very clearly there. And this goes beyond music. This goes into why do people like certain types of movies, certain types of video games. Why is Grand Theft Auto, the best selling video game. Right. (True) There's... there's a big question there. Why are people drawn to violence and sex and, you know, gangster stuff and this and that? That's... To me, that's that's actually there. Interesting question, because it's like, well, if there's such a big demand for it. Of course, people are going to make it. (Yeah) And there's a lot of positive stuff out there. I make positive music. Right.

Zuby: I'm not I'm not getting one point two billion anything... So I can probably make a song about a girl's butt and maybe it'll be my most popular song ever, you know? So, yeah, that that's an aspect. But in terms of my own, my own way of doing things, my music is a reflection of who I am.

Zuby: So I've got my own values and principles and my own background and experiences, etc.. I'm not a gang banger. I've never sold drugs. I haven't killed anybody. And I don't endorse that. And it's not my thing, so I'm not going to rap about it. Right. People ask me why I don't swear in my music. I don't swear in my music because I don't swear in real.

Teacher Mike: You don't swear at all.

Zuby: Yeah. So I'm not going to suddenly I'm talking to you here now. Right. And I'm the same person in my music. Right. I mean it'll it'll be a little more, you know, exaggerated and entertaining and fun and whatever. Right. Because you're you're a performer. But in terms of who I am and the message I put across there, I'm just consistent. All right. I'm the same. I don't go to the studio and suddenly I'm like a gang banger and I'm like, you know, this and that. It's just like, nah, I'm just Zuby. All right. I'm Zuby across the board. I'm consistent on everything that I do. And also, as you already alluded to, there's so much negativity out there already.

Teacher Mike: Mm hmm.

Zuby: Right. So why would I why would I want to add to that if I'm gonna have people listening to my music, whether it's, you know, young people, teenagers, older people, whatever. I don't want to be... music does have an impact on people. So if I can impact people in a positive way and give them something that's like, I don't know, uplifting or inspirational or motivational or whatever, I much I'd much rather do that with my platform and with my art than to create music that someone wants to do a drive by, too. So that's the way I personally look at it. And yeah, I have you know, everyone has their every artist has their own philosophy on it.

Teacher Mike: Mm hmm. Very good. And that's a very good answer. I totally agree with you. And also, I think that your authenticity is what brings a lot to the table. And I really think that's why you kind of blew up, because when you blow up on the Internet, it hasn't happened to me. But I what I what I see across the board is when you blow up on the Internet, if you are authentic, you kind of survive are if you are not, you kind of don't don't you can't keep up with the wave. OK, so now we're going to talk about it. I definitely got to know you because of the deadlift. Sure. Because what happened is you popped up on my feet. I have my friend Raf. He follows you for a long time. He also mentioned that I should tell you that Canadian people also think freely. He's a free thinker. OK. So I got to know you because of that. And that took Twitter for a while. And I. I followed you because my thought process was this guy's going to get canceled.

Teacher Mike: And I really like people that get canceled because I feel like I would be canceled one day.

Teacher Mike: So that was my thought process. But you mentioned that you got a lot of positive feedback.

Zuby: Oh, yeah.

Teacher Mike: So my question is why? Why?

Teacher Mike: I don't understand it!

Zuby: Because it was awesome.

Teacher Mike: Well, yes, I agree! Because I was also one that gave you a positive feedback!

Teacher Mike: But my question is, do you think that's possible for everyone? I don't think that would be possible for a lot of people on the Internet.

Zuby: While most people can't even lift the weight, so most people wouldn't have been able to do what I did. But look, I mean, there was nothing offensive about it.

Teacher Mike: No. Yeah. Yeah, of course.

Zuby: There's nothing offensive about it. And so if someone is critical of - even the people who wanted to criticize me for it, they couldn't criticize me without.

Teacher Mike: Getting your point across.

Zuby: Yeah. Without being hypocritical. (Yeah.) So there's only there's only two conclusions you can draw. Either, number one, I am the British women's deadlift record holder. (Yeah). That's one conclusion. The other conclusion is no, I'm actually a man. And I can't just identify as a woman and be a woman. So. It's one of the two. It can't be both because someone saying someone saying, hey, you're not really you're not really a woman or what I can say, hey, I identified as a woman. You told me you've been telling everybody that a woman is anyone who identifies as a woman. So when I decide to, you can't suddenly tell me that I'm not, you know, and that's it. It all it'll be you know, it's very subjective. So, yeah, that that was that was all. And I don't back down. Right. Like, I'm not gonna I'm not gonna apologize. People, would you apologize.

Zuby: Well, I mean, in one interview they did ask me if I would apologize. I was like, why would I apologize? Apologizing for anything? I'd do it again. I'd do it again tomorrow... if the gym was open.

Teacher Mike: Guy's like: I really need the gym!

Zuby: Yeah. No. No.

Zuby: But, you know, and it was obviously it made people laugh, but at the same time, it was the underlying point. I think that's why it went so viral, because it was making. It was making an important point, but in a very satirical, funny way that, you know.

Teacher Mike: Yeah. I was just checking the tweet when I was like, OK, watch me break the record without even trying. So is a really good tweet.

Zuby: Yeah. And it's funny, you know, when I tweeted, I didn't I didn't think, OK, this is like this is the one, you know, I do. I've got over 80000 tweets. Like, I just put I put stuff out there. I think of something. I think it's funny. I think it's interesting. Whatever I put it out there. And that was the same. I just thought, OK, I think I think, you know, this is kind of funny. And my followers will probably appreciate this. And I mean, I read that tweet as just on Twitter, it's done over eleven million impressions, like almost three million views. And it just went bananas like I didn't. You can't predict stuff like that.

Teacher Mike: No, you can't. Definitely. So in the topic of cancel culture, because that's that's kind of the idea that that's what what's happening in my head when I follow you. And I was really positively surprised that everything was fine with you. Yeah. How do you see it as a phenomenon? Why did people get crazy on on going after people's jobs and careers? Because of something. Because of an opinion. Why do you think that happened in some way?

Zuby: I think that they're depending on what level you look at it. There are a lot of different reasons, I think. I think cancel culture is not new. Right. This is something that is inbuilt in human beings going back centuries and millennia. Right. People have always been canceled. All right. You know, Jesus was canceled.

Teacher Mike: Right. Right. It makes it makes sense.

Zuby: Yeah. You know, and he didn't do anything wrong. All right. Yeah. No cancelation is something that's always happened. People have been canceled in for religious reasons, for social reasons, tradition.

Zuby: If you go back just to the past century, you had him McCarthyism. You know, in the past, you had witch hunts. You've had all these kind of moral panics where people freak out and because of the ingroup and outgroup dynamic and human tribalism, there's this desire if someone doesn't fit in to exactly what we think or what we believe or whatever, we must we must cast them out. We need to excommunicate them. We need to kind of kind of kick them out. So I think that some of it is just like a human sort of collective psychological phenomenon. (Ok!) But in terms of the way it is now, I think the fact that social media exists is a huge factor because everything... firstly, we have so much more information and visibility of things.

Zuby: So. Like, if you think about it. Think of what we were just talking about. Fifteen years ago. That couldn't have happened, right? You wouldn't know who I was. (Yeah, yeah)

Zuby: All right. Because there was no there was no mechanism that I can amplify. I can post and I can post a nine second video. And millions of people around the world see it. Right. That that's new. Right. Unless you are like on TV or in the movies or something like that, that's a new thing. And it's so fast. And you can something can happen in New York City right now. And then we see. Right. And we can give our. And now everyone's talking about it in all these different countries and Brazil and the U.K. all over. And so. And this goes with everything. Right. So if so, a lot of people get cancer because, I don't know, they post something on social media. And then next thing you know, something innocuous. This is someone who didn't even wasn't even a public figure. But now thousands, millions of people now see this thing and everyone wants to, like, jump on it and get outraged and whatever. So, yes, it's just amplified. So it's like that same thing. But then it goes a lot, lot further. And then I think for some people, it's a little bit of a it's you know, it's kind of like a game for them, the people who who are proponents of it. I think there's a lot of malice involved. Like they do want to... I Think you have the people who do things, thinking they're doing good, but then you have the people who are kind of like bullies, but they just want to... The best way to be a bully is to sort of pretend you're being a bully for like a good reason. Yeah. So, like, they sort of mask like, oh, I'm doing this because I care about. But really.

Zuby: No, you just want to you just want to kind of mess somebody up because you don't like their views or their opinions or whatever it is. So that's a factor. And then I think also because it has this chilling effect, because people don't want to be canceled. So the cowardice leads to more cowardice and it also emboldens the mob. So I always tell people, do not apolo... Unless you are genuinely sorry, unless you made a mistake. Do not apologize and definitely don't do a public apology. Right.

Zuby: If I if I say...

Teacher Mike: Which is the most common thing on YouTubers, right?

Zuby: Yeah. Don't do it. Don't do it. Because it just emboldens the mob and they don't care about apologies like they don't, they don't even want an apology. There's no one who apologizes and they're like, oh, OK, (Good job!) No. No, it's just they'll quit. They'll start criticizing the apology. They say they'll say you didn't mean it. They'll go and find the next thing that you said. There's no there's no point in a in apologizing... If you've directly hurt somebody. Right. If I hurt you, if I said something that was insulting to you. I apologize to you, Mike. I don't I'm not going to go on, make some huge struggles, session apology with video cameras and, you know, say every six (And ad breaks in between.) Yeah. Make an apology to every Brazilian in the world, you know, because, you know, it's just like, no, that's not. If someone wants you to make a public apology, it's because they want to make a show out of you. Right? They want to. That's why it's done. And it's also done to scare other people because people are like, oh, gosh, I don't want to be I don't want to be the next person who's, you know, having. Yeah. I don't want to be this next person. So the best way, like I tell people, like the best way to win certain games is to not play it.

Teacher Mike: It's that saying! How that saying goes?. Play stupid games win stupid prizes?

Zuby: Exactly. Yeah.

Teacher Mike: And I really believe that.

Zuby: Yeah. Just... Just don't play. I mean I've had look, I've had at least 15 Twitter mobs come after me in the past year, and...

Teacher Mike: I just laugh at them. All right. And they get bored. And 24 hours later, they move to another one. When they're: OK, it's not going to work. Like, we can't get them or I'll just monetize it. Right. You saw the...

Teacher Mike: The "ok dude" shirt?

Zuby: Yeah, exactly. You know, the OK DUDE is now a five figure business.

Teacher Mike: So this is the best way to mock the mob because you're like: "Yeah, Wanna do that? I'm going to monetize that."

Zuby: I'm gonna monetize it! I have t shirts, hats, like the song, music video. So it just yeah, you have to you have to like, sort of just flip these things or if it's too much, just just ignore it.

Zuby: Just ignore it and then. Like, you know, it's people people get bored. People move on.

Teacher Mike: Yeah, I was gonna I was gonna ask you this question. What would you say to someone that has had that problem? And there you go. You answered it beautifully. It's very in line with what Jordan Peterson says. You if you ever heard it. But he says the exact same thing. Like, don't apologize. You've never done anything wrong. And people will move on to another person that they're going to go after. So it's a really cool, cool advice. What is your general... So I think it ties a little bit to that. What is your general stance on free speech? Are you an advocate of free speech? Do you think there's a limit to it?

Zuby: Of course not. I'm a free speech absolutist, pretty much. I would only draw the line at the direct threats and calls to violence. And this is talking like from a legal perspective, not going away. I think what I think. Obviously in terms of what I think people should and shouldn't say. Of course, you're just talking from a legal perspective perspective. Yeah. Yeah. Direct direct threats and incitement to violence. I would have as an exception. And. Was there another one maybe like elements of slander? Right. So, you know, you can't just go around and accuse people of committing crimes that they didn't commit or something. Right. You know, apart from that. There's a lot of speech that I dislike. And there's a lot of things I wish people wouldn't say. I wish people wouldn't do. But from a legal standpoint, it is someone who's pretty libertarian. I'm not interested in the government getting involved beyond that, even if it's stuff that I think is, you know, a very awful and egregious but terrible views can be, you know, free speech. You use free speech to combat free speech. If someone is spreading some super crazy idea or is just saying something that's totally wrong, then they can say it, but they can also be criticized and they can be challenged. And that's the best way to do it. Right. I'm not. I don't care that some people believe the earth is flat. Like, that's fine. You know, I'm not trying to silence them, but I'm I can use my own speech to question. I think my I think my idea is my my opinion is more correct than theirs is. So I'm happy to explain it. And, yeah, you know, it it doesn't matter the issue or someone who I'll take something really egregious. Right. Like someone who denies the Holocaust or someone who believe, you know, has has like read genuinely offensive views. It's like I'm not interested in the government clamping down on this. I don't I don't think you should be thrown in prison because you you have to remember... When people... A lot of people don't think about laws properly. (Mm hmm.) Right. If you have, you have to think with every law, essentially, every law is backed up by the threat of violent( violence. Yeah.) Backed up by that. Yeah, by backed up by the... So am I willing for the police or whoever to come in, kick down somebody's door and arrest them at gunpoint because they don't think the Holocaust happened? No, I think that person is dumb. I think their idea doesn't doesn't make sense. It's a stupid conspiracy theory. (Yeah) but I'm not interested in that being a crime and being prosecuted. It doesn't mean I think I agree with what they're saying. But I would defend their right to say it. And I think. Yeah. I think we have enough dumb laws. I don't think we should be making more dumb laws and trying to I don't know, just prosecute people for saying dumb things. Like?! It doesn't make sense to me.

Teacher Mike: Do you feel that the UK is a free speech place or it isn't?

Zuby: No, it's not.

Teacher Mike: No. No. Canada. Canada isn't the best place either. No, I am where I'm from. Brazil. Brazil is is having such a hard time. Yeah. People are getting arrested because of criticizing that like the Supreme Court. Oh really. Which is. That's interesting. Yeah. It is the insanest thing ever, and right now we have all this. We have comedians being arrested. We have journalists being arrested...

Zuby: Yeah that's not good.

Zuby: I mean, I think as far as I know, I think only the USA. Yeah. I think only the USA has free speech sort of properly and enshrined in its constitution. Maybe there's another country. But U.S. is the only one that I can think of where... So I know in... you know, in the UK you have hate speech laws. In Canada, you've got hate speech laws, in Germany, in most European countries, etc.. So, yeah, I think the USA might be the only I think the USA has it right. I think I think the USA has it right. I think he they nailed that. I think I'm a big fan of the Constitution and the you know, most of the amendments, I think they really I think they the founders really, really thought ahead. All right. Yeah, I thought I had and were like, OK, speech is a tricky one. So we need to just do the lightest touch approach. And that's it. Because if you then start trying to. Offense is so subjective. So subjective. Right.

Zuby: So if someone says, oh, you shouldn't be allowed to say something that's offensive, I'm like, wait, what are you talking about? Right. I find swearing offensive. (There you go.) Right. I find someone saying something bad about God or Jesus offensive. So... am I?... If I set the rules right. Do I ban that? And I throw you in jail because you said, you know, it's like. No, like. And I grew up in Saudi Arabia. Arabia. So you have to remember, like, who sets the rules. Right. The laws. The thing. There's things I can't say in the UK that I can openly say in Saudi Arabia. And there's and there's things I can't say in Saudi Arabia, that I can opnely say in the U.K. So it's like, OK, well, Who makes the rulebook?

Zuby: And the best answer is like: OK, let's not really have a rulebook. And it's a little bit messy, but let's just give people that liberty.

Teacher Mike: That is a very good point. You went to the Rubin Report, right? (Yeah, that's right.) Yeah, I just finished his book. And he has this this thing about coming out of the closet in terms of your opinions. And was this something that happened to you? You decided to openly talk about your opinions at some point or you will have always been very open?

Zuby: I guess so. I've always been open privately. (Mm hmm.) I've always been open privately. And my opinions and views, socio politically, haven't really changed that much over the past 15 years. I've become a bit more libertarian and that's about it. But. Yeah, I mean, in 2018, 2018 iswhen I started to use my...

Zuby: Because you have to remember I'm all right. I'm a musician. (Yes.) So, I didn't really want to... One: I didn't want to distract from my music. (Yeah.) Right. I mean, I, I've, I've already just accepted now this has happened. Right. I'm probably better known for my opinions than I am from my music. That's just something that's happened. But I didn't want that to happen. Right. I didn't want one thing to sort of take over the music. And also in terms of my own audience and my potential audience, it was like, look, let me not. I don't want to talk about politics or anything contentious because I don't want to risk rocking the boat or polarizing my own audience or losing a fan because I you know, they don't like my view on this or that. (OK). And then hmm in 2018, I just switched and I just started to talk about it a little bit more. And yeah, it's been it's been upwards ever since. It's been upwards ever since like a lot more.

Teacher Mike: So you thought that this wasn't going to be very good and now do you feel like it was a very good thing that happened to you?

Zuby: I think it was, yeah. And I think in terms of me using my voice more, I think it was just necessary. It was necessary. I felt I felt a compulsion to do it because I think things can only go so crazy before I feel the need to say something right. Like I don't speak on everything. I don't speak out. I'm not and I'm not a journalist. I don't cover every single, every single issue, everything I'm aware of. Sometimes things get so crazy that I'm like and I and I wasn't seeing that many people speaking on it. Right. You know, you mentioned you've mentioned Dave Rubin, and you've mentioned Jordan Peterson. You've mentioned Joe. Right. So there are people out there who are talking about certain things. But generally I was like, man, we need more like sane voices. I consider myself I consider myself sane and reasonable and... Yeah, you know, and it's like, OK, well, if all the crazy people are going to be talking all their stuff, it's a bit like you said with my music. Right. It's like, well, if there's so much negativity that's going on out there, it's important for me to be a counterbalance to that aspect of the culture. And similarly, I felt we're going down some weird roads here and a lot of different things. And I can't just sit back here and watch it. (Watch it.) I need to I need to speak up and say something. And by doing so, it emboldens other people. There's so many people, hundreds of people, probably thousands of people who I know that I have helped embolden them to become just a little bit more courageous and a bit more willing to speak up a little bit about things they are concerned about. And it has that sort of domino effect. And I think in the long... In the short term, it can be kind of scary. But in the long term, it's it's necessary both individually and collectively. And it's also freeing. Right. Like, I love the fact that people always ask me now, like, are you afraid of getting canceled? And it's like, well, like I can't be canceled because my audience isn't the type that would cancel me. Right. Like, I've built my own audience. That wouldn't do that because people now understand where I where I'm coming from.

Zuby: And they know people know my beliefs and people know what I think about this and what I think about that. And even if people disagree, I'm happy to have conversations. I'm happy to explain my position. I'm you know, I'm saying I'm reasonable. I'm not trying to I'm not like a... I don't know.

Zuby: I'm no sort of like radical or like intolerant, close-minded person who just wants to like ram. I'm not I have no I have no hardline ideology. I don't have hardline ideology. I have my principles. I have my values. But Number One, I'm humble enough to admit, like, you know what? There's stuff I've been wrong on before and I've changed my mind on. So, like, I know that there's gonna be stuff that I'm wrong about right now. And then there's some stuff where it's like, you know, there's not really a wrong in a right. People just have different opinions. And I can understand the different positions and empathize with different people's ideas and stuff like that. And that's ultimately what's necessary for society to function in a healthy way, because with millions or billions of people, we're not all going to be the same and agree on everything. Of course not. But we have to be able to get on with each other and be kind and be civil and be compassionate, etc., despite these differences.

Teacher Mike: Yeah, and that's a very inspiring message, by the way. Have you seen what happened to Tucker Carlson recently?

Zuby: No.

Teacher Mike: Times thing?

Zuby: No, I haven't seen them.

Teacher Mike: So to preface this very quickly. Allegedly, of course. New York Times was going to expose his home address. And then, of course, you know what comes after that. I don't want to talk about that specifically because it's very new. I'm not sure if it's even true. But my question is, what does that tell you about media today? How do you feel about media in general today?

Zuby: I think that the American media has done more to divide America than anything anybody, any politician, etc. This is my honest position. I think I've thought that for many years now. And it's weird to talk about the media because the media is such a broad term. I could be considered part of the media.

Zuby: So, you know, what I mean is like the main mainstream media, mainstream news media has done a lot to polarize and divide people and sort of hype people up and amp people up and create fear and resentment and hostility, etc. and then they'll want to blame it on Trump or they'll want to blame it on this or they'll want to blame it on that. But really, I think they are the architects of it and they're the ones who really propagate it because, sure, the media is not as powerful now as it used to be, because now we have social media, we have independent media, et cetera. But it's still extremely powerful in terms of the way that the general populace thinks. There are still millions and millions of people who just, you know, sit there and watch TV and believe most of what they see. I haven't owned it. I haven't owned a TV for twelve years yet. I know that that's not the norm most because I don't watch TV and they're not as skeptical as I am about things and they don't ask as many questions as I do and seek information from different sources. So yeah. So what the media says is still is still important. They can still create lies out of thin air, which they've done many times and many times they can spread them within a matter of hours if need be. So, yeah, my view on the mainstream media, of course, there are exceptions. And, you know, it's not saying all journalists are bad or... there's good reporters, there's good journalists, etc.. But the entities themselves - and a lot of this is because of economic incentives as well, because so much stuff is now driven by clickbaits, ad revenue and stuff like that. So it creates a bad incentive. (Yeah) It, it, it encourages them to be more polarizing and create more outrage. Yeah. Yeah. All of that stuff. And it's kind of a race to the bottom, which is a shame, but I don't know how to fix it.

Teacher Mike: Yeah. And just a follow question and we're gonna close it off. How do you navigate that? So being a free thinker and being exposed to all that media, how do you navigate trying to be a free thinker in today's world?

Zuby: Man, I think unplugging from it to some degree is good because it's crazy. I mean, if you don't watch TV and you don't watch the news when you do watch the news, especially certain channels, it does. It's crazy how obvious the propaganda is. This is I'm watching. I'm just like, this is propaganda. This is not this is not news. But if you watch it every single day, then you lose that objective vision. So what I recommend is, you know, I recommend people to to challenge their own views and follow people from different perspectives on social media and things like that, and just look at things from different angles and also just to use their own brains and just to to think to think logically and to think OK. To think critically. Yeah. And, you know, when it comes to media, what was an easy thing to do if you see a story and you're not really sure what the facts are, is, you know what? Look at a source that's more right wing leaning. Look at a source sources, more left wing leaning stuff that the stuff that they agree on. You can probably assume it's true. This is the facts. And then the rest is more opinion, which doesn't mean that it's wrong. But just understand that it's you know, if you're watching FOX News. Be aware that it has a right leaning bias. If you're watching BBC, (CNN), and be aware it has a left leaning bias.

Zuby: And as long as you are aware of that, the bias itself isn't a massive problem because you can kind of filter that through. So you're like: OK, I'm getting some opinions here along with the news, right.

Teacher Mike: There's news and then there's opinions. So, yeah, just just critical thinking, I think will will help people. But also, you just don't need to keep up with the news that much man is really not important. Like, I went many, many years without watching the news at all. And I still mostly do that. I get my news from Twitter. All right. If if it's important enough, I will see it.

Teacher Mike: Yes.

Teacher Mike: I think it's a good way to get the news, because basically what you're getting you're getting the news and massive feedback on the on the thread. So I think it makes sense. You can kind of figure out what are people's opinions and what has actually happened based on that thread. Yeah. Zuby, thank you so much.

Zuby: Yeah, no, I was going to say: and form your opinion based on the facts, not on other people's opinions.

Teacher Mike: Yeah. That is crucial.

Zuby: Yeah. So a lot of people get their news, they just see other people's opinions and then they react to the other people's opinions without looking at the original source saying, okay, what actually happened.

Teacher Mike: Yeah, dude. Thank you so much for taking your time and coming to the podcast. You are a very authentic dude. You are exactly the guy that I've seen on Joe Rogan, Ben Shapiro, Dave Rubin. And it's awesome to finally meet you. And yeah, that's it, man. Thank you so much. Have a great day there on UK and enjoy your gym this next week!

Zuby: You're welcome.