EP. 87 – Interview W/ Tiago (@tira.do.papel)

Teacher Mike: Bem-vindos ao "Podcast Para Aprender Inglês", o melhor podcast para aprender inglês do Brasil, e do mundo e do universo, segundo eu que vos falo, o Teacher Mike. Se você quiser ler o transcript completo desse episódio, procure o link do meu Telegram, lá no meu Instagram: @itsteachermike. Vejo você lá, aproveite o episódio de hoje e até mais!

Teacher Mike: Hey, everyone! Its teacher Mike here and I'm here with Tiago, do "Tira do Papel", "Take it out of the paper". This guy's amazing and I've I've known him for quite a while, but we never actually personally talked like this in a video. It's the first time and it's also the first time we talk in English to each other, which is also very cool. But this guy is an absolute beast, I think, in terms of... well, I'll give you my compliments first, but then I want you to tell a bit a little about yourself. But I think one thing that you do really well at is analyzing the feedback that you have. I think you do that very well, the data that you have and also another thing that I think you do really well to your followers and to me as well is the ability to help people to take the pressure off themselves. And I think you do that really well as well. Some posts there, they resonate a lot with me because they say "well, you don't have to pressure... you don't have to put as much pressure on you. There's the journey, respect that, yada yada. I think you do all those things really well. But Tiago, tell us a little bit about you, man.

Tiago: Yeah. I feel very happy to be here and that's so true, it is so weird. It is the first time we actually speak live and we're doing that in English.

Teacher Mike: It is so real.

Tiago: But I feel very, very happy about your feedback. Seriously, feel very, very happy and that's very true. I think that whenever people start using social media - and it's such an amazing tool -, you just start hearing lots of things, such as, you know, social media is toxic and blah, blah, blah, when actually it's just humans using a tool.

Teacher Mike: Exactly. Yeah.

Tiago: And just the way, like, just by shifting your mindset about what that tool is capable off, you can completely, let's say, change your experience as well. So just as an introduction to my project, "Tira do Papel", I mean, the name is quitely true, I basically show people how they can not just plan or overplan their projects, but how you actually execute their projects. And I show how it's possible to do that following their own pace, because, at the end of the day, every single person has a different way of learning, a different way of acting and, sometimes, your goals are not the same as my goals. So it's very important to respect that. And I love the fact that you say that I actually, like, pay a lot of attention to what people say and the feedback people give to me, because that's a metric that people don't talk about as often as they should. You know, people are always talking about likes and shares, the numbers.

Tiago: And it's amazing how every single person that joins Instagram, for instance, is giving, you know, this sort of standard set of metrics. Yeah, but they have such different goals and you cannot just blindly use them the same way.

Teacher Mike: Yeah.

Tiago: And for me, one of the most underestimated things about social media is the amount of insights you can get to develop not just your content, but also your services and your products.

Teacher Mike: Yes, that makes... That makes so much sense. How did so I know that you had "Transleite" before, which was very cool. Such a nice idea as well. So if you guys don't know, is it is still active somehow or...?

Tiago: No, not really.

Teacher Mike: Not active, but it's there, people can look at it?

Tiago: Yeah. Yeah, it's still available.

Teacher Mike: Okay. Yeah. So that's it. So if you go and you search "Transleite", literally as I said it, so "transleite", as in milk, "transmilk", you will find it and that's how I met him first, because he was doing those pun types of jokes. So if you don't know what a pun is, é um trocadilho. And you know, you know the thing is really funny, and I think a lot of your creativity comes down to that and that's where "Tira do Papel" comes from the name. It's amazing.

Tiago: Thank you.

Teacher Mike: Yeah. So I want to know about Tiago and how does that happen in his head. Like "oh, I want to do the "Transleite" thing and then I want to try this and then I want to go to "Tira do Papel". Was this planned? Was it not planned? How was your journey leading up to that?

Tiago: I love the question actually, because for me, "Transleite" was more like a lab. You know, it's more like an experimental space I created for myself to figure out how social media works, first of all, and secondly, to start getting used to put myself out there, to put my work out there, because I think, sometimes, when people have goals, they just focus on that goal, they don't focus on the process to get there.

Teacher Mike: Okay.

Tiago: No, they don't focus on becoming the person who has the habits that will lead them to that goal.

Teacher Mike: Okay.

Tiago: And I noticed that there was a massive, massive gap between the person I wanted to become and the person I was...

Teacher Mike: At the time?

Tiago: At that time, exactly. So, right now, I feel much more in line with that, initially because I was very shy to, you know, to appear on social media to just show my work. I was very scared of other people's judgments and I was scared to not know enough to be sharing content. And that sort of way, like a solution I found to breach that gap was breaking that goal into smaller pieces.

Teacher Mike: Yes. Yes.

Tiago: So almost like a stair. So, at the top of the stair, there's that goal, which is like showing my work on social media. And in order to get there, I could, you know, first of all, get used to social media, and then, later on, start sharing my work, and then, later on, figure out exactly which bit of my work I actually want to show. So that's exactly how it works, so "Transleite" was...

Teacher Mike: Was one step of the ladder?

Tiago: Yeah, exactly. It was just one small step. And I had no actual... Like, I didn't have like a concrete plan, like "I'm going to do this for, like, you know, one year and then after that I'm going to blah, blah, blah".

Teacher Mike: OK.

Tiago: Because if you actually start planning that much, you end up doing nothing, because you just start planning and planning and planning and...

Teacher Mike: And you may feel overwhelmed by the plans, right?

Tiago: Totally. Exactly. So "Transleite" was a very, sort of organic experiment, because me and my friends, we used to do those kind of puns for ages.

Teacher Mike: I imagine the conversations

Tiago: In the WhatsApp group, yeah, the WhatsApp group is just so messy and it's literally just a group for that, you know, we literally just send these translations there. And some of them are so, so advanced, are so tricky to solve, as a puzzle, you know, like, what I show in that page is just what's accessible, you know, in order to... In order for people to understand what we do.

Tiago: So yeah, like creating content there was not tricky, because we used to, you know, just, let's say, design so many of these puns. So that left me with a lot of headspace to actually think about the social media part of it. And then, after I did that, like, there was actually another step in the way: I started to write, to write and illustrate on my personal profile. So it wasn't "Tira do Papel", I had another, like, I had a personal profile where I just started to write about random things. I did not have a niche. I didn't have a main subject. I would just write weekly. Like, that was a sort of...

Teacher Mike: I think I saw that one, too. I think I saw that one, too.

Tiago: Yeah?

Teacher Mike: Yeah. Did you share it, at some point, at "Transleite"?

Tiago: I believe so. Yeah, I think I did.

Teacher Mike: I think I did see it at some point, yes.

Tiago: Yeah. And for me, it was, again, another laboratory, but in that stage, I wasn't so focused on, for example, developing the social media and growth and et cetera. I just wanted to get to use to expose my work. So each one of these steps, which were not linear at all, it was just like steps on a stair.

Teacher Mike: Yeah, yeah.

Tiago: A sort of progression. They played different roles in my process, for me to actually be able to start "Tira do Papel". So sometimes people look at the work I'm doing today and they think "wow, this guy started, you know, like ten months ago and he's he got, you know, so big in such a small amount of time", but actually there's a lot of process before that.

Teacher Mike: Yeah. Yeah. They are looking at the tip of the iceberg.

Tiago: Exactly that. Exactly that.

Teacher Mike: It makes a lot of sense. You mentioned that you were a little bit shy.

Tiago: Yeah.

Teacher Mike: So I think that's a good point of advice there. How did you overcome that? Because I've never been really shy. I've been I used to be shy, like high school shy, like in high school.

Tiago: I cannot picture that.

Teacher Mike: No, yeah, In middle school, I was very shy, but after that, in university especially, like, I was "ok, whatever, I don't really care", so I think I can be considered an extrovert for sure. But I know that people are different. So I know that there are introverts. Your mug just disappeared. I know that there are people that also not necessarily are introverts or extroverts, they are just shy for some reason, right?

Tiago: Yeah.

Teacher Mike: And there are... I'm one hundred percent sure there's people listening right now that want to do something similar, that want to show their work or their abilities online and they feel shy. So did you have a process to overcome that? How was the feeling around that?

Tiago: Yeah, definitely. So I wouldn't consider myself, I don't know, maybe... I use the word shy, but I don't know if it's the best word for that. I think I'm a weird mixture of an introvert and an extrovert, because I do need time to recharge. I do need time to recharge, sometimes, when I'm in social gatherings and stuff, I like to be by myself and to think. And that's a very important moment of the day for me. And so I'm I'm sort of this mixture, because I'm not, like, for me, it's not really hard to to bond with people and to connect, like, if I'm in a party or something like that, so...

Teacher Mike: OK.

Tiago: But when it comes to show showing my work online, that was very challenging. That was extremely challenging. And I guess the way I would tackle that is, first of all, try to break the process into smaller pieces, because every complex problem you need to sort out in life, that you need to solve in life, is actually just a bunch of smaller problems scattered. And that can be scary. That can make you procrastinate. And when I say procrastinate, I'm not talking about a bad management of time. I'm talking about bad management ofemotions, because you do feel scared about that massive thing you need to solve, when actually what you need to do today is just a smaller task.

Teacher Mike: Yes.

Tiago: You know? Which is actually part of a bigger ecosystem.

Teacher Mike: Yeah.

Tiago: So I think, when it comes to overcoming this sort of stuff, I would definitely start out by breaking this massive problem into pieces, smaller pieces. And then, secondly, I would start off from what I have today, like the tools I have today and what I'm able to do today. So rather than waiting for you to be ready, let's say - and I'm very scared of using the word ready, because you neve truly feel ready.

Teacher Mike: Because you're never ready.

Tiago: Yeah. So I would say: just start off by writing, if you're a good writer, or by speaking, you know.

Teacher Mike: If you can speak.

Tiago: If you can speak well, like in a podcast you don't have the same exposure you would have in a YouTube video, for instance. So there's a lot of flexibility there when it comes to tools and ways to express yourself. And I would just start by the low hanging fruit, so the tool you actually have...

Teacher Mike: Such a nice concept.

Tiago: Yeah, I love the concept of low hanging fruit, especially because I believe that authenticity is one of the things that really make people connect with you and make your content great. For me, authenticity is like top free skills, not skills, but like, the top three main important things you need in your content for it to actually shine, let's say. So if you start by the low hanging fruit and things that are natural to you, there is a chance that you actually open a lot of space for innovation. So even if nobody's writing on your field, maybe if you do start writing, you're actually going to create a space in your market that hasn't been discovered before, you know?

Teacher Mike: Nice. That is such an interesting idea, because I feel like I definitely fell for that trap, too, into looking at what other people are doing and try to do the same base of other people's success. And I think that, when you look at "Tira do Papel", you can see quite clearly that you weren't so worried. Well, I mean, I don't know, because I haven't research that a lot. But it looks like you weren't so worried about what other people were doing. A great example of that, and I'm definitely stealing that idea, is the newsletter that you are very worried about the number of people that are opening and the quality of the content and not so much about the number of people that are there. Right. So the fact that you can you can try these new things. I think it's a very, very good concept. Let's try to think about some challenges that you faced. What were some things that you felt... ok, these are challenges, you know, they exist. What were they initially? Maybe the biggest, the ones that stand out for you the most.

Tiago: Yeah, I think that the main challenge I've faced in the past months was definitely the lack of rest. Like, I wasn't resting so much.

Teacher Mike: Yeah.

Tiago: So, I didn't know if the question is focused more like on the strategic side of it or the design part of it.

Teacher Mike: No, that is good. I like that.

Tiago: Yeah, because, just for context, I had a full time job on the side. So "Tira do Papel" is a project that was born in mid-October 2019 and up to, let's say, August 2020. I was, you know, balancing it with my full time job.

Teacher Mike: A full time job and "Tira do Papel".

Tiago: Yeah, exactly, and that was extremely hard, extremely challenging.

Teacher Mike: Your full time job as a... a designer at a company? What was it?

Tiago: Yeah, exactly. I was a designer. I was working as a graphic designer. So social media is not my, let's say, formal background. I never had any proper, like, you know, academic training or anything. It is just practice.

Teacher Mike: That's so good. And then, I think that the full time job of a designer doesn't... I know a lot of people have a lot of work, but I think that designers work a lot, even after hours, right?

Tiago: Yeah, it tends to happe. In the place I worked, that wasn't the, let's say, the common way of working. Actually, they were very respectful of that.

Teacher Mike: That's good.

Tiago: Yeah. And, for me, that was a must. And as a background story, actually, cause this might be maybe helpful for someone out there, that maybe is thinking about making this transition as well, because it's so common that sometimes you're not happy at your job and you want to create your own thing.

Teacher Mike: Yeah.

Tiago: For me, it was very crucial that I had, first of all, the validation that I liked what I was doing before I tried to jump out of my job and just focus full time on that. I also wanted some sort of, like, financial stability to know that, like, this project is now, let's call it, sustainable. So it actually brings in some revenue and can actually be a safe place for me to focus on.

Teacher Mike: Yeah.

Tiago: So there was this moment in October 2019 where I basically needed to decide. "Ok, so either I'm going to look for a new job or I'm going to start out my side project and actually going to try to monetize it and make it my business". And the reason why I actually thought about this is because there was a restructure going on in the company I was working at, so the CEO has changed and he decided to, you know, cut costs, focus on last things, which actually made a lot of sense. But, because of that, I saw people losing their jobs. And sometimes...

Teacher Mike: You were a little bit worried.

Tiago: I was very worried. I guess, in that moment, I just start putting everything into perspective and seeing that actually having a full time job maybe that's not as safe as everybody thinks it is. You know, I saw a person that worked...

Teacher Mike: Oh, that is such a good concept, bro.

Tiago: Like, I saw a guy that worked there for fifteen years lose his. He loved to work there, but it just made sense, you know, strategically speaking, for the company, it made sense.

Teacher Mike: Yes, the times change, the CEOs change, and a lot of... I think I agree with you so much in that, because we we were taught that, that's the thing. We were taught that full time jobs are the safe thing. They are, I am not saying that they aren't, but some things can happen. They always can.

Tiago: Yeah. It's the concept of putting all your eggs in one basket. I don't know if that's the right expression.

Teacher Mike: That is the right expression.

Tiago: Yeah. You have a stability. Don't get me wrong, like, you're not going to have to stress about many things as maybe a person who has their own business needs to worry about, but it's not as safe as most people think. And if you do lose your job, you need to reinvent yourself.

Teacher Mike: And very quickly.

Tiago: And really quickly. So I guess that was it. I guess, in that moment, I started questioning what I wanted to do in my life that put everything into perspective. And I just decided to start my side projects and really focus on that and, rather than having, let's say, just one source of income. Try to diversify my portfolio in that sense. So, having different revenue streams, you know, some some money come from courses, some money come from mentorship, some money come from other things that I'm actually going to start out and start focusing now that I have more time and headspace.

Teacher Mike: Yeah.

Tiago: So, just for context, like, I think that's why it was so challenging, because it was a very stressful period.

Teacher Mike: And that's why also you had so little rest.

Tiago: Exactly. And I feel like a normal human being that sleeps eight hours a day.

Teacher Mike: That's so good. It's a very interesting concept, because I think you did one thing there. I think you were a very practical guy. I'm not sure if I'm right. Are you?

Tiago: Yeah.

Teacher Mike: Because, the way that you did this, you did it very practically. What you said, "well, I have this job, I want to quit it, but I can't do it right now, because, if I do it right now. I don't have the financial incentive nor the stability to do it. So you tested the waters first and you made sure you were able to make that transition. I think a lot of people that are listening, and I get this question very often because I made that position as well, they say "ah, I want to quit my job" and then... you know, in the past, I used to think: "just quit". I used to think that, right? Because I would think that "quando a água bate na bunda", you can't say that in English, right? I used to think that, when it happens, you just will feel pressured enough to move on, but I don't think that's true anymore, I changed my mind on that. I think that you may be stuck because of pressure.

Tiago: Totally. And I think that what you said is very, very important. So, if you're listening to this and thinking about doing so, there is this concept of burning bridges, right? If you burn the bridge, you cannot go back. So you're just going to completely dive into whatever you need to do and that's going to be successful. But the truth is we only hear the successful stories. You know, there's no TED Talk about a person that says, you know, "yeah, I quit my job, nothing worked, and that's it, guys, there's no lesson here, I just wanted to tell you how I failed". You know, you don't see a TED talk about that.

Teacher Mike: Yeah.

Tiago: So I guess people have to kind of stablish their own briefs. So how would I like to transition? And for me, for instance, that meant "I want to transition whenever I see my project is sustainable and I want to generate, at least, like, let's say, one year of a cushion". I don't know if you can call it a cushion.

Teacher Mike: You can call it a cushion.

Tiago: Yeah, exactly. Like a safety net of one year. If there was no money coming in for one year, cool, I'd have that.

Teacher Mike: And then that is the time to quit?

Tiago: And then that's the time. And that's when I validated that, like, cool. And I'm conscious that's a very ambitious sort of brief that I established for myself, but I felt like I could do it, and that's why I did it. And maybe the reason why I established that brief is why I do it, because maybe if I established something that was simpler, I would just be more, like, more achievable, more realistic, maybe I wouldn't get that far. I don't know.

Teacher Mike: Oh, that's a very good point. Like establishing a higher goal, breaking it down to smaller steps. No. But that is good. That is a very good point. I think we do the same. At Accelerate, we do the same thing, we always establish a higher goal and we try to break it down in steps and it's been working well. It helps you understand. And another... To add on that, if, for some reason, you didn't get to the goal, ok, fine, it happens. But assess... Don't change the goal. Assess what happened. Make sure you understand why you didn't get there. So that, eventually, you're going to get there.

Tiago: Yes. So true. Because the process needs to be reviewed, I guess. I guess that's one thing people sometimes do wrong. They just think "I didn't reach my goals, so I'm you know, I wouldn't have gotten there." But actually, it's just a matter of revisiting your process.

Teacher Mike: Exactly, exactly. This is so good. Let me ask you another question. When we start a project or a social media or a business, right? It changes along the way, right? It moves, it changes purpose. It changes the way we see what is possible with it. I mean, when I started "Teacher Mike", all I wanted was five students a month, right? That's all I wanted. Yeah. I would never think that, in my life, I would have five hundred. So the fact that this happened, it's because it's changed. And then my ability to see that change helped me change the goals again. Has that happened with "Tira do Papel"? Did you start in a way? Have you changed your perspective? Have you changed your idea of a purpose? What is what is happening in your headspace right now?

Tiago: Yeah, that's a good question, actually. And congratulations for the five hundred, because that's quite amazing.

Teacher Mike: Yeah, it is cool.

Tiago: I guess it's normal that you change your goals over time. That's just natural. So, for instance, I remember on the beginning of my project, I was focusing a lot on growth. So I wanted to grow. I wanted to reach more people and, in a way, I don't know how to explain, but there was a point where I just felt like "oh, wow, ok, cool, but this is now growing a bit too much and I actually need to rethink my strategy". Because, for me, it's very important to to show people who are following me on Instagram that I also create content in places like Telegram or that I have a podcast, that I have a newsletter. For me, it's really important to notify these people that, you know, you can also find me in these places. But if you just start growing exponentially, it's very tricky to do that, because the algorithm doesn't always show the content you're creating for every single person, you know, in your following list. So that was sort of a challenge. And in a way... But in a way, it was a very important challenge because it really emphasized something that I truly believe in, that is, I have to stop thinking about necessary, like scaling, but focusing more on giving, how can I say it? Like, the best experience possible for the people who are here today? So, whenever I'm thinking, for instance, about my products or the way I serve my audience, I'm trying to think of their journey, so the first course that I launched is very focused on people who wants to create a project online, but maybe they're scared or maybe they feel judge, they just can't start because all they listen to is motivational quotes and that's not very helpful.

Teacher Mike: That's so good. Yeah.

Tiago: Yeah. So the first course I created was thinking about that, but then, when a person reaches that goal, like they actually start on the project, what's next? And that's where my head is at now, it is about retention.

Teacher Mike: So good.

Tiago: Yeah, my head's about retention now, it is not about acquisition, especially because retention tends to be a very important metric that many people don't think about. But, from my perspective, it's very, very important.

Teacher Mike: Well, yeah, it's so cool to see your head working, bro, because... look, like the way I see it, this is some honest feedback from someone that, like, I don't need to lie here, right? So you are someone that has the ability to see the human side, the feedback, like, the message that you get and Instagram, and then you feel like "ok, that's a good feedback. I have to work on these things", but at the same time, you're someone that can be also very data driven, which you think "all right, I have to think about retention now". I think, honestly, I think I don't do it this well. I think I only think a lot about the numbers, the data, and I don't think a lot about the human side. There's something I need to improve there and I think you do it really well because you're able to do both. And yes, one hundred percent, retention. If anyone's in the business or if anyone has a business right now, rotation is what's going to make your business grow exponentially. Because that brings your LTV higher. Right. So to these people that don't know, LTV: lifetime value. So basically, you don't want a client to go through your PodCurso, which was the first one.. what was the name of the first course?

Tiago: It is "Vambora, comece a criar conteúdo sem autosabotagem".

Teacher Mike: Very good. Is this one open now or you can't go in?

Tiago: Yeah. It is always available.

Teacher Mike: It's always available? Very good. So guys, for example, you go into the course and you learn how to start. And then there is the "what's next". Now, it's very important for a business that the person comes in and does the next step, all right? So, for you, the fact that you can see that already, you have already a very business centered mind, which is like insane, it's very cool. Of course, there's the journey. You went through that, alright. But it's very, very cool. Are you already creating the next course? Is it already available? What is the idea there?

Tiago: Yeah. I'm creating it. So essentially what I'm thinking as a journey. It is actually good that I talked about it with you because I can think out loud.

Teacher Mike: Yeah, very good. And also, people can join, you guys should join the course.

Tiago: Yeah. So what I'm thinking is like "oh, so after I started out my project, what did I need back then?" So I always start out by thinking about what I needed in the past because there's lots of, let's say, clues on what path I could follow. But alongside of that, I also ask questions to my audience and I pay a lot of attention to what they say. So the first course, for instance, it wasn't created from you know, I woke up and I had this crazy idea to create this course. I just sent an email to my email list and I said "I would like to create a new product, what can I help you with?" You know? "And if you hit reply, I'm going to, you know, read and reply to every single message". And I literally did so. And people gave me so much feedback. And I just have this massive amount of data in front of me. And I was I like "cool, I can definitely help you all through this, so let's, you know, build a course about this". And I started to to think what's you know, what's the first step or maybe the first step is, you know, the moment where you want to start out your project, and then, the next step, is when you start using, I don't know, you know, strategy actually, in a way that makes sense to you to actually put content out there and why is it important put content out there and how they can, you know, make you find clients or just develop yourself creatively and a lot. So the second course, for example, that I'm developing is based also on people's feedback. So everything I developed is always based on what people are telling me. You can help me out through that.

Teacher Mike: Which is the way it should be.

Tiago: Yeah, exactly. And, you know, our parents' generation, they didn't have that opportunity to just mold their products and everything based on instant feedback that you get from people. And I find it sometimes when people complain about social media and blah, blah, blah, they should really try to shift their mindset and see that from another perspective, because I learn so much with my audience and they basically tell me what the next steps are. Obviously I have a judgment and I look at that data.

Teacher Mike: You can filter it.

Tiago: Exactly. I can filter whenever it doesn't make sense, because sometimes you do get some feedback that I'm like "well, if I do that, it's just not gonna be sustainable, that's not going to work".

Teacher Mike: And yeah, it's like that Bell Curve, right? So, at one point, you're gonna have very weird feedback; at the other point, you're gonna have very weird feedback, but there's the eighty percent that is very important. That's that's how I figured out. So let me give you a quick behind the scenes of Teacher Mike. We initially I thought "well, maybe I should have a basic, an intermediate and an advanced program because I thought, well, I can make them cheaper, I can make the student go through every one of them and there you go". It doesn't work. People don't want to go through a basic, intermediate and advanced. They would like a longer solution. So we learned that, if I make the course that is six months or eight months long, then they are more inclined to join because they want the whole thing. And it's a process that we learned by talking to people and having conversations. Another thing they did recently that maybe you have done it in a similar way is I talked the last group of people that joined, there was a number of people that was still possible to talk to every single one of them personally. So I did a call with every single... there's a few missing, but I did a call to most of them, just to see where they are in life right now and why are they joining the course. And that was a very important call. I hadn't done that before. I should have done before, like the fact that I did it now and I thought "dude, I should have done it so much longer ago, because now I understand so much better why people are joining in". People who only look at the numbers, but the interview process is superimportant. So the fact that you made the question to the newsletter and said "hey, guys, what do you want?" And you have that feedback. I think that allows you to have a very good product, too, which is a good product. I'm not saying this because Tiago's here. Clarissa, my girlfriend, she's done the course, she loves the course. She's already a social media person and she uses the course. So to anyone that's listening, you guys should definitely check it out. Let me ask you another question. Moving on to another topic. Are you aware of the thousand true fans? Is that something you're pursuing? Or is that something that you achieved, maybe?

Tiago: Well, we're gonna find out soon, right? In theory, that is, you know, that's very in line with everything I said. So I'm not, I am saying... I don't take it literally the concept of a thousand true fans, especially because that number can vary depending on the kind of products you sell and everything, but I love the concept. I absolutely love the concept. And I think it's one of the most, how can I say, one of the most human approaches to marketing that I've ever seen. I absolutely love the concept of one thousand true fans.

Teacher Mike: Why would you say it's like the most human approach way?

Tiago: Because I think when it comes to especially digital marketing, people are always thinking about acquisition and always thinking about scaling and always thinking of all this, perhaps, I wouldn't call it an unsustainable rhythm, because I do believe some people can sustain it. But that's not my ambition. And I guess that's a very important... a very important thing to have clarity about is that I don't see myself... Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I want to listen to this podcast in 10 years and think "what did I say then?"

Teacher Mike: Dude, amazing. I love the podcast because of these, yeah.

Tiago: Yeah. Today, in 2020, I don't see myself as this person that want to kind of scale up as crazy and have ten people working for me. And actually, I guess I just want to get to a point where I'm happy and start creating systems to, I wouldn't say take me out of the equation, but, like, to make me maybe work less and do as much and, you know, create a just a healthy system, because at the end of the day, your work is just a part of your life and you can have, you know? And I guess that's it. I don't see myself as this very kind of like "oh, my God, I want to reach everybody in the world, blah, blah, blah", you know? So I would say that I don't follow the one thousand true fans literally, but I love most of its concept.

Teacher Mike: So good. So good. I definitely agree. To people that are listening that don't understand than that thousand true fans concept is basically the idea that it's better to have a thousand people that are really like you and they buy your product or they become a member of your service it, rather than having a hundred thousand followers and not having a thousand people to do that. I think there has been an example recently about a famous influencer that couldn't sell a few T-shirts, right?

Tiago: Oh, yeah. That is true.

Teacher Mike: And that happens because maybe of lack of authenticity, maybe because they don't really enjoy what you're doing, right? I've had that struggle where I was... In a moment where I wasn't enjoying as much of the content that I was putting out, so I had to reassess myself to make sure I enjoyed it. So, for example, the podcast, I absolutely love it. It's like my favorite type of content to do. And it's so good because I can get to talk to people like Tiago and I can learn from people and it's very nice. Yeah. Let me see any more questions that I may have, I think that are interesting. Oh, yes. The point of pressure and releasing pressure from people and the way that you approach that. Initially, you thought that was a good concept of content already or did that idea come up from feedback as well?

Tiago: No, not really, actually. I think that was pretty natural because, when I wanted to start my project, I would either listen to "Just do it", which is a very like... I wouldn't call it maybe aggressive, it doesn't work with everyone. It will work with some people, but not with everybody. So it was either that or you know a motivational quote.

Teacher Mike: "Just do it" as a podcast?

Tiago: No, no, no. I mean

Teacher Mike: Oh, you mean the quote itself.

Tiago: The quote itself.

Teacher Mike: Like the idea of like "Just do it".

Tiago: Yeah, exactly. The sort of advice I would get was either on one extreme which was "just do it, go just do it" or do the other extreme, which was, you know, "believe in yourself, you are amazing", which is not practical at all. And then I would be inbetween these two things and thinking "none of these can help me, what is it that can help me?" So I started to look for lots of references in, I don't know, Brian Holliday's books that talk about the Stoics and Greek philosophy.

Teacher Mike: I haven't started reading this one yet, but I have been recommended so many times.

Tiago: He is absolutely amazing. He is absolutely amazing. He has such a pragmatic prospective of life and business and everything. He is quite amazing. And about philosophy, about habits, science as well. So I love James Clear's book, that absolutely changed my life, called "Athomic Habits". I love that book. That's the book that I if I was to advise just one book in my life, that would be it. Because that just... I don't know, it just covers so many things from your personal to your professional life and it's absolutely mind blowing, and it is funny because the principles are very simple, but sometimes you just need to listen to the obvious things. And when it comes to... so I guess going back to the question, like, why do I emphasize a lot that you need to pay attention to your psychological side while creating is just because we're not robots, you know? So for me, it was very tough to not be able to do anything, listening to "just do it" or to a motivational quote, so I needed to find that space in between, you know, a method that can work... I wouldn't say a method, maybe a concept that can work for everybody. So, for example, the concept of breaking a problem into many smaller pieces is something that can be adapted. You know, it's just a process and you can adapt it to your situation. So I guess... And that's the first time I'm saying this out loud, I guess.

Teacher Mike: But this is good, this is good.

Tiago: I guess my my focus was "how can I create processes that can be replicated in different realities because people have very different realities".

Teacher Mike: For some things, you can't just do it, and for some things, you can't just believe in yourself.

Tiago: Yeah.

Teacher Mike: And I think, man, definitely now that we're talking and now that I'm saying it out loud as well. I think that's one of the reasons why "Tira do Papel" is so amazing, because you're in the middle between being self aware of the problems that you may have and of the pressure that you may face, but also being self aware of the fact that you have to do things.

Tiago: Yeah.

Teacher Mike: Because you're in that beautiful medium, I think that's why you resonate to so many people. I don't know a single person, because I have told about your Instagram too many people, I don't know a single person that have looked at it and thought "I don't like this Instagram". I don't know.

Tiago: This is good.

Teacher Mike: It is insane. And I think it's because you resonate with that. You're not... you didn't put yourself to the extremes, which is ok, people do that, it may work.

Tiago: Yeah.

Teacher Mike: But think you did a very good job there.

Tiago: Thank you.

Teacher Mike: Yeah, so cool. All right. I don't know. That was a really good conversation. I want to talk longer, but I kind of want to let you go as well, because I know you have a meeting.

Tiago: It is fine.

00:38:36:07 00:38:45:09

Teacher Mike: But ok, let's... Just our last round of questions. And now generally about life in the U.K. and, Tiago, how did you end up there?

00:38:46:16 00:38:54:04

Tiago: Well, it is such a very long story, because in 2013, you know, back when there was no pandemic and back when...

Teacher Mike: Back when life was good. No, I'm just kidding.

Tiago: No, I mean, back when Brazil wasn't beaten by seven on one by Germany, I applied for a scholarship at Politécnico de Milão, a university in Italy, so I did a master there.

Teacher Mike: Insane, so cool.

Tiago: It's a very long story, ut the point is, like, I ended up in London because I found a job here.

Teacher Mike: But you were already in Europe?

Tiago: I was already in Europe and I also have a Portuguese citizenship.

Teacher Mike: That is so cool, man.

Tiago: Because all my family's Portuguese, like, all my grandparents are Portuguese. So since I was very young, I had a Portuguese passport. And that makes it a lot easier for you to kind of travel.

Teacher Mike: A lot easier, yeah. Very cool, man. Very nice. I have one last question that I got asked by some followers. I said I was going to do this with you. And they said, they really asked about English. They said: "how important was English for you in that journey?" So just a very quick thing. Was it like superimportant even when going to Europe and doing the... in Milão or only became important in London? And how was that journey?

Tiago: So, English was really important for me to navigate this whole process, not just from the moment I got into the U.K., but also from the moment I sort of got to Italy. And so, for example, the master I did in Politecnico was in Italian. It wasn't in English. The first year was in Italian. The second year was in English. But, in general, you do get to know lots of international people in there and it's just such a powerful tool. And it's so interesting, also, to think how my perspective of knowing English has changed as well since I moved away, because before I would see it as this precious thing that I needed to command soundly and I would need to, you know, adapt my accent to some perfect like a...

Teacher Mike: A perfect standard.

Tiago: Yeah. And that's so toxic because that just... you're just seeking perfection in something.

Teacher Mike: Without a reason.

Tiago: Without a reason, there's no purpose. At the end of the day, for me, English is a communication tool, the same way my keyboard is a communication tool, the same way social media is a communication tool. So, from the moment you reach communication, you... I don't know, there's like this this thing that happens in your brain, you just understand, like, dude, that's just a tool. Like, I don't have to overthink it. I don't have to like... obviously if it's interesting for you or if you have this passion about languages and you want to developed your accent furthermore, fine. You know, there's a lot of, you know, there's a lot of content out there, just a lot of people that can help you out with that. But for me, when I realized, wow, I can actually communicate perfectly and I can make friends and I can, you know, meet international people. And like, for example, my girlfriend is Spanish and we communicate mostly in English.

Teacher Mike: That is interesting, that is cool.

Tiago: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I do train my Spanish from time to time with her, but mostly it's English and it's so funny how, I don't know, you just learn so much when you kind of change your mindset from this, "oh, my God, English has to be perfect" and focus more on the fact that it's a tool.

Teacher Mike: See, the idea of "oh my God, English has to be perfect" is usually coming from someone that is initiating their journey and I think it translates to social media and to everything. When you're starting, you think "I have to do it perfectly". When you start it, you realize "ok, it actually doesn't have to be that perfect, I can just follow along the journey". Tiago, I'm going to let you go. You have a meeting. I have another meeting as well. But that was an amazing conversation man. Thank you so much for hopping on the podcast. Guys, one hundred percent check this guy out. If you don't know him @Tira.do.papel. Take out of the paper. And definitely check his course out. Quanto custa o curso mesmo? Vamos fazer um pitch aqui rápido.

Tiago: 255 reais.

Teacher Mike: Very good. So very cheap compared to the value you get there. I've seen the course. My girlfriend made the course, so you guys you should definitely check it out. Tiago, thank you so much, man. Have a great day in London. Thank you for coming in. And that's it, bro.

Tiago: Thank you so much. I'm very happy to be here and talking to you. You're also a very inspiring person to me as well. I'm amazed, I'm genuinely amazed by the fact that you're creating so much stuff and you're like, I don't know, sixteen year old. I am joking. But you know, I mean, I wish I started that early, that's why I when I see you creating, like, constructing whatever you're constructing, I'm just like, "wow, this fascinates me".

Teacher Mike: Man, thank you. It goes both ways. I'm always very inspired by you. So, yeah, thank you so much, man. Have a have a great day.

Tiago: Thanks.